Sylvie:  What's the difference -- if any -- between science and technolgy?  Who or what controls it or them?
Voice of Reason:  hey guys
Voice of Reason:  i am very reasonable
Sandman:  science is the means in which technology is created. technology is science alive.
Voice of Reason:  be careful
Voice of Reason:  science is very much alive too
Sandman:  true, but how ?
Voice of Reason:  technology could be called the enhancement of science or the progress of science
Sylvie:  science is the observation and understanding of actual relationships in the physical world while technology is it's application and development
Sandman:  could technology exist without science? will it in the future?
Voice of Reason:  does technology always have to do with science
Voice of Reason:  ?
Sylvie:  no
Voice of Reason:  i think technology could exist without science
Voice of Reason:  in the future for sure
Sandman:  maybe..but somehow they seem dependent.
Sylvie:  technology utilizes basic scientific principles
Sandman:  perhpas after we know all we can know (?) technology will be it's own self-supporting branch
Voice of Reason:  maybe because we have such a broad category of what people consider "science"
June:  Well, I have a question:   do you guys think there is any such thing as Pure Sceince?
Sylvie:  how would a tv work if we didn't know about electricity, light waves etc
Voice of Reason:  we can never know everything because how could you put a limit on knowledge and know when you got there?
Voice of Reason:  where you been, june?
June:  Just got here...
Sylvie:  is there a limit on technology?
Voice of Reason:  coming in late in the game
June:  What do you mean a limit, Sylvie?
Annie:  I don't think there can be a pure science...  You can't know anything for sure...
Sandman:  technology is based off of our scientific principles, no doubt. but after this basic assumption, how much does technology become its own thing is my question.
Annie:  Well, if there was a pure science it would beyond our grasp as humans...
Voice of Reason:  there is not a limit on technology because we are discovering new things every day
June:  What I mean by "Pure" is this idea that science is the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, not for profit
Sylvie:  if we will never know some aspects of science, then the application oif technology may then also have a certain limit
Voice of Reason:  science was invented by humans so i dont know if we could call it "pure"
Sylvie:  but it observes natural relationships
Annie:  I think there are some scientists who do it for the love of science and not for the $$.
Sylvie:  the word "human" was made by humans but we are real
Sandman:  yes, but what are they discovering and for whom?
Voice of Reason:  it is relationships observed by us humans
Annie:  I mean look at Galileo - he was persecuted and all by the church, but he still went ahead and tried to figure out who things work.
Annie:  I mean how things work
Voice of Reason:  human was made in an attempt to describe our whole species
Sandman:  good point
Annie:  Maybe they're discovering it for themselves - people are naturally curious
June:  V of R:  right.  Scientific principles are just facts of nature.  Science I guess is what happens when we study them.
Sylvie:  science was made in an attempt to describe the whole physical world
Voice of Reason:  yes
Voice of Reason:  exactly
Voice of Reason:  but how do we know the limits of the physical world?
Voice of Reason:  science has no bounds because it is what we make of it
Sandman:  so why do we still need science now that we "know" these principles? how has this changed?
Sylvie:  just the limitations of our interpretation of it
Annie:  Ok, I have a bioethics question.  If a human being can be manufactured like in brave new world, would that person have a soul?
June:  There's so much we don't know about nature it's literally mind-boggling.
Voice of Reason:  of course
Sandman:  wwhy woulen't they
Sandman:  they're not robots
June:  I think in fact that we know so little that our technology is dangerous -- its exceeds our knowledge!
Sylvie:  children are created, do they have soul's?
Voice of Reason:  if that person could think and have some kind of self conception then a soul would be there too
Voice of Reason:  children are not engineered--unfair comparison
Annie:  Yeah, I think they would too - lots of people think they wouldn't though...  I think the Church has a problem with saying that science can manufacture people with souls...
Sylvie:  computers thinks and know they are there.  They are pushing more and more towards thinking type abilities, they mioght have souls
Sandman:  well, the church has a problem with a lot of things.
Sandman:  but that's beyond the point
Voice of Reason:  well the church has a problem with all science
Sandman:  yup
June:  Basic question:  what do you mean by soul?  Does it just come along with the machinery?
Voice of Reason:  can computers describe themselves and their relationships
Voice of Reason:  ?
Sylvie:  it does every time it is started up
Sandman:  i hope not. that's almost a breach of human privacy.
Voice of Reason:  i think that the soul is some kind of self-conception that one can express
Sylvie:  well, we usually dismiss computers because we can turn them off.  Who knows that we aren't sporadically turned off?  Have you heard of deja-vu?
Voice of Reason:  but the computer does not think on its own.  it only thinks because it has been hard-wired that way
Voice of Reason:  i had deja-vu once.  but that is a whole other story
Sylvie:  we are also hard wired with neurons etc.  We are meat machines
Annie:  Well, our brain works with electric signals too.  Ok, our brains are more complicated I admit it.  But what happens when circuits get as complex/efficient as us?
Sandman:  but we act on our own accord
Voice of Reason:  right-o, sandman!
Sylvie:  we have evolved, can 't computers
Voice of Reason:  i dont think so
Annie:  No - computers aren't meant to compete with each other and they can't reproduce
Voice of Reason:  they only evolve because we change them
Annie:  They can evolve only if we build better and faster ones.
Annie:  And that's not really evolution.
Voice of Reason:  we are the gods of computers
Voice of Reason:  they should pray to us nightly
Voice of Reason:  sacrifice also
Sylvie:  the best and fastest computers aren't thrown away
Sylvie:  darwinism
Sandman:  the whole natural selection process all over again...darwin would be proud of computers
June:  Okay.  Changing the subject a bit:  what about the question of who controls science?  who controls technology and why?  In BNW government does, right?  What about here, now?
Voice of Reason:  but the computers dont compete to survive like in darwinism
Sylvie:  who knows?
June:  who knoes what?
Voice of Reason:  we control technology
Sandman:  true, vor. but we sort of compete ourselves through the computers.
June:  who the hell are WE?
Voice of Reason:  technology only occurs through human invention
Annie:  The desire to learn more about the world is an all of us - I think science is in control of those who are the most curious.
Voice of Reason:  humans
Sylvie:  if they are competing or not, we have a human cognitive bias that dismisses any idea that we may not know everything about what we create
Sandman:  we -the scientist and the little men and women living in the underground labs.
Voice of Reason:  computers are pawns in our chess game
June:  Okay.  But doesn't buisness control technology?  It's sonsumerism.
June:  consumerism.  sorry
Voice of Reason:  but who controls business?  the humans
Annie:  Well technology is different than science.  Science is the discovery of new things/observing about the world.  Technology is machines, etc. made possible by science.
June:  But what's the motive?  Knowledge?  Money?  What?
Sylvie:  need
Sandman:  the whole shabang is our motive
Voice of Reason:  i would say that technology is discover and science is quantifying natural phenomena
Annie:  I think for some it's $$, but those people usually aren't too innovative.  Curiosity I think drives it.
June:  Hmmm.  Need That's interesting.  That means that consumers direct technological development?
Voice of Reason:  some people will work pretty damn hard for money
Sandman:  technological development in turn makes us think we NEED it.
Annie:  Yeah, that's true.  But I think the great discoveries in science weren't done for $$
Voice of Reason:  the airplane wasnt invented for money, i dont think
Annie:  galileo, einstein, newton - not for money
Sandman:  bye, guys.
Annie:  bye
Voice of Reason:  well, time to go.  it has been real
Sandman:  chow
Voice of Reason:  see you all later
Voice of Reason:  ciao
Sandman:  thanks
Sylvie:  there are two theories: technological determinism, technology directs how we interact as humans and use machines etc 2.  Societal determinism stresses that we need things and they are developed
Sylvie:  I am Jamari