senator:  hello?
Shasta:  hello!
binky:  hello?
senator:  so, do we have a topic?
Wyman:  ..hello
Shasta:  hello.
binky:  ha
Shasta:  Not yet, I think we're waiting for one.
Wyman:  okie dokie
binky:  someone should have a topic question
Wyman:  what passages?
Shasta:  is anyone at the corner computer?
senator:  no alleged passsage.
Shasta:  If you are, hit return.
binky:  someone's computer should have a passage already typed on it
Shasta:  Hmmm....
binky:  one of the four corner computers
senator:  ook,,, binkky, i think you should make one up.
Wyman:  good idea
Shasta:  Yeah, make one up binky
binky:  hold on
senator:  pressure's on
binky:  what do you guys think of the idea that...
Wyman:  (jeopardy theme music)
senator:  ii am totally against it
binky:  "the question is not, Can they reason?  nor, Can they talk?  but, Can they suffer?
binky:  "
senator:   who is they?
binky:  animals, that is
senator:  no, not in our language, and yes
Wyman:  don't you need reason to be able to suffer
binky:  do you think animals can suffer?  is that a good measure of whether animal experimentation should be done?
Wyman:  you need to know what's going on to be able to experience pain
senator:  but what about like spiders. do they feel pain if i step on them?
binky:  i know my dog feels pain when i step on him or something
binky:  but is that suffering?
Shasta:  Yeah, I'm sure they feel pain, but their minds are so simple that we don't feel guilty.
Wyman:  well, they're dead immediately, so probably no
binky:  suffering has a slightly different connotation
senator:  suffering implies an awareness of what is happening, no?
Shasta:  Well, how about when you squash a spider, but it's not totally dead yet, etc.
senator:  so, if the dog is aware i am kicking it, it hurts.
binky:  forget the spider for a sec
senator:  i think the spider thing has something to do with nervous systems
binky:  i  think pain and suffering are different, but i'm trying to figure out how
senator:  so, should we judge pain on nervous systems
Wyman:  no, pain is all mental
senator:  suffering seems like ongoing.
senator:  pain is not mental.
binky:  pain is a physical phenomenon
Shasta:  Well, I don't think the question is whether animals feel pain or not, it's whether we ought to feel guilty about causing them pain or not.
binky:  suffering is almost a mental phenomonen
Wyman:  pain is physical but is recognized mentally and then leads to the realization of real suffering
senator:  ok. yes, i feel guilty, if i'm sure i'm causing pain. but not wiith spiders
binky:  which would imply that in order to suffer, you need  a certain mental capacity
Shasta:  Well, ok.  If the spider DID suffer would you not sqash it?
binky:  hell, yeah, i'd squash it
Shasta:  or is the spider so beneath us, that we shouldn't even squash it.
senator:  no, i would still squash, but fast
binky:  i don't think death is what they're talking about when they relate this to animal rights
senator:  one could argue that dogs have a dimished mental capacity but they can suffer
Wyman:  hwy squash it? i don't see the purpose
senator:  because it bites me
Wyman:  ok
binky:  more like humane rights, torturing an animal by dosing it with experimental drugs, etc.
senator:  that is suffering
Wyman:  yeah, that sucks
Shasta:  Well, most scientists don't just randomly torture animals.  They do it to help humans.
binky:  what is suffering?
senator:  so, is it justified to make animals suffer in order to help humans?
Shasta:  If causing a milion rats to suffer would save one human life  is it justified?
binky:  do you think animal experimentation should be done wantonly, as much as possible as long as it helps humans?
binky:  or is there a limit?
senator:  i thought they had other alternatives, like computers and stuff
Wyman:  i guess i just get pissed that so many animals suffer and sometimes it seems so little is actually being produced or discovered from their pain
binky:  for nuclear testing they do now, i'm not sure about other stuff
binky:  and there really isn't a replacement for clinical trials
senator:  do you think there is a system on how much an aniimal suffers? like would a rabbit suffer more or less than a rat?
Shasta:  Yeah, I think it is used too much and unnecessarily, but I'm not for abolishing it all together.
Wyman:  the value of life is a tricky thing
binky:  i still  am not sure if a rabbit can suffer
senator:  why not?
senator:  it feels pain, but not suffering. that is the difference?
binky:  like i said before, suffering implies a certain mental capacity, an awareness
binky:  i'm not sure all animals have that.
Shasta:  Who are we to say which animals can suffer and which can't?  We can't really know.
senator:  so, if they don't know they're "suffering" then is it ok to inflict them with pain
binky:  and i'm not sure i agree with the idea that suffering is the key issue
Wyman:  but we can't be sure ever . so do we just choose animals we think have a lesser mental pain threshold or something?
senator:  who cares about stupid rats anyway?
Wyman:  true
binky:  suffering is just one man's idea of the key issue
senator:  yeah, i agree with the mental threshold thing.
binky:  would you experiment on your pet dog?
Wyman:  a lot of times we can't help but be bothered by it
senator:  no.
binky:  pretty smart, but not really sentient...
binky:  where do you draw the line?
Shasta:  I would experiment on my pet dog only if it would save a human life.  If not, of course I wouldn't.  Plus, I don't really like dogs.
binky:  what animal would you experiment on.
Shasta:  But I still wouldn't...
senator:  i wouldn't . but if experimentation needs to be done, i'd rather have it done on rats than dogs
Shasta:  How bout cows...
senator:  sure
binky:  monkeys?
Wyman:  we draw the line by staying away from familiar pets. we don't want to see duke, the family dog, in a test place, but a stinking rat is ok, i guess
binky:  my friends have had pet rats
senator:  true. monkeys  is tricky.
binky:  apes?
Shasta:  I guess experimenting on primates makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.  They are extremely intelligent - they can even communicate with us in sign language.
binky:  parrots?
Wyman:  monkeys are so humanlike that we find it even harder to use them
Shasta:  Their minds are similar to a human child's.
senator:  monkeys are valuable for testing because they are so like humans, but it is hard on the human conscience for exactly the same reasons
Wyman:  exactly
binky:  yeah.  it might even be more of a subconscious subliminal, mental discrimination that makes us think this way
Shasta:  I would draw the line at monkey...
senator:  remember some move with matthew broadrick and a monkey they shot into space?
binky:  project x
senator:  yeah. that made me cry
Shasta:  huh?
senator:  the movie. it was see the monkey shot up into its doom
binky:  senator is sympathizing with amonkey
senator:  i meant sad
Wyman:  oh.
Shasta:  Oh...  that's sad.
binky:  you all type fast
senator:  ok. so have you ever heard of vivisection?
Wyman:  huh?
Shasta:  huh?
Shasta:  wha?
binky:  what about that guy who said that oysters don't count, but crabs and shrimp do?
senator:  it is when they open up the animal and experiment on it while it's still alive.
binky:  that sucks
Wyman:  yuck
senator:  maybe that is suffering
Shasta:  Whoa, that seems a little extreme...
senator:  yes, but they do it.
binky:  i'd pop a cap in anyone that tried to do that on me
Wyman:  like the frog experiment in high school. id you guys ever dissect a froh and touch it's brain while it was still alive? it sucks. they squeel and stuff.
senator:  the nazis did it to the people in concentration camps
binky:  you guys dissected frogs alive?
senator:  no, we only got dead frogs
binky:  that's twisted
Wyman:  yeah, nasty. but you learn what suffering is. if that isn't, i don't knw what is
binky:  hell, yeah, i bet they squeal.  i'd be screamin my lungs out if someone was touching my brain
senator:  see, that seems like a pc thing that a high school wouldn't let its students do.
binky:  although, the brain isn't supposed to have any nerves in it, so you can't really feel it
Wyman:  welcome to the world of psycho high school
binky:  so i'm not sure why frogs would squeal,
binky:  maybe from the incision?
Wyman:  non public schools have a lot of freedom
senator:  fear?
Shasta:  So maybe vivisection is a little too much...  I'm sure they could find some sort of alternative.\
Wyman:  not from the incision, they are numb.  just the terror maybe?
Wyman:  fear is another difficult thing to judge.
binky:  anyone think we should experiment on humans?
senator:  ok, but can a frog feel an "emotion" like terror?
Shasta:  Ok, if you had to choose : 100000 vivisected monkeys vs. 1 human child...
Shasta:  What would it be?
Wyman:  do these animals have any idea what is happening to them?
binky:  tough call
binky:  i might have to let the kid go
senator:  could the kid be brain dead?
Shasta:  No, the kid is normal, just like you and me.
senator:  bye bye monkeys
binky:  i say, let the kid pet each of the 100000 monkeys, then let him meet his maker
Shasta:  I think I'd give the monkeys the axe...
Shasta:  hesitatingly though.
senator:  bye.
Wyman:  cio
binky:  or maybe let the kid choose after seeing the monkeys
binky:  adios
Shasta:  bye
Wyman:  yeah, let the kid choose