Granddaughter of Eng Mun Dom
Interviewee: Florence Eng (Granddaughter of Eng Mun Dom)
Interviewer: Joseph Ng and Barre Fong
Date: February 18, 2013
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Length of the Interview: 39 minutes, 4 seconds
00:32 Fong: And how did you get, how did your family ended up going from Chicago to Honolulu?
00:39 Eng: My husband was a medical student at Northwestern University, and this is how we met. And he just decided that he would bring me to paradise, which is Honolulu.
00:54 Fong: Is that where he was from?
00:56 Eng: He’s from Honolulu.
00:59 Fong: And so, the project is about the descendants of railroad workers. So tell me, what, if you can, what you, what your family history is, oral history is around the railroad and -?
01:13 Eng: I actually, I just heard bits and pieces of my grandfather’s being very wealthy – a wealthy man – we just assumed that he had, or least I assumed that he had come to United States and work on Railroad project. We don’t have any documents. Just, by word, just bits and pieces by my mother, who related these things to my sister Olga who lives in Oakland. My uncle, my father’s older brother, was very wealthy and in China he had owned a bank. And, uh, that’s all I know of what – where he may have found his capital to start a bank and he came to United States also.
02:15 Fong: And what are those stories that you heard? What are your memories of the little bits and pieces you heard about your grandfather?
02:22 Eng: I didn’t hear that much about my grandfather. Not that much. His name was Eng Mun Dom. Eng Mun Dom. I think my sister Olga will be able to tell you more about my grandfather. I know only – they were four in the family, the uncle was a [Cantonese name], [Eng Cantonese Name], and my father – oh, no, there was an older sister, [Eng Cantonese Name], who married [Low Cantonese Name]. And then my Uncle [Cantonese Name], and then there’s my father, who was called, [Cantonese Name]. And then he had a younger brother who passed away and those were about the only relatives I believe they had.
03:28 Fong: I actually heard a little bit of story that you think that your grandfather may have gone back to China with us a large sum of money.
03:37 Eng: He would have had to. Because he didn’t come back here again. That’s right. He didn’t come back to the United States again.
03:45 Fong: Did, uh, did anyone track where he went? I mean, his, did he have another family in China? Did he raise another family in China after he left the United States?
03:58 Eng: I think he’d been – I think he had his, he had a family there. And he didn’t have a family here, in the United States. You know, he went back. He went back.
04:05 Fong: How did your father end up leaving China?
04:12 Eng: I don’t really know, but everyone wants to come to, to Gum – to Gumsan, the Gold Mountain. There’s so much to say about the Gold Mountain. And evidently he wanted to try to make some money. *laughter* He was, he was the village [Cantonese word], principal of the village school. So evidently he had a fairly good education. As far as, as far as the Gold Mountain, it was my maternal – maternal grandfather did come to United States to work in the gold fields. And maybe that was prior to the Railroad project – I believe. I’m not sure. So maybe that spurred them all to come over here, to try their luck, and make better – they seized a better living coming here.
05:07 Fong: Do you know – do you know what year your father came to the United States?
05:11 Eng: My father?
05:12 Fong: Yes.
05:13 Eng: I would assume — he married my mother in 1911. So I, and, and, right after he married my mother, he must have left her there, in China, because he did go back to – returned for her until 1919, after the World War I. My father had a first wife and has had a son and the wife lost – died, I think she died, the first wife died – and then married my mother in 1911, to take care of the, the first son. And I think he left my mother there for the, that purpose and came to the United States thereafter. Then, as I said, during the War War I, he was conscripted to go, to go into the War but I understand that just as they were about to call him, they, they signed the Armistice and he evaded – he was able to avoid the World War I. And I think thereafter, soon after that, he had returned to bring my mother over. [unclear] 1919, I believe. And they settled in Chicago thereafter. Never went back to China.
06:35 Fong: Tell me about the, the restaurant. Each of them.
06:40 Eng: Oh the restaurants? My head. My father had many restaurants. He came over, I understand he worked in the laundry in Quincy, Illinois. This is from my bits and pieces I’ve learned. I guess from there, he, he decided to start the restaurant business. And he started them in the smaller cities like, uh, I understand, Minneapolis, I know Minneapolis. And then probably Chicago. And the first restaurant is called The Paradise Inn, in Chicago, on Madison Avenue. And then he opened a restaurant called, or he was the founder rather, the night club, a supper club, called the Golden Pheasant on Madison Street. It was a very popular place, a fabulous place. A beautiful dining room, a dance floor. And as a child, I remember going there to play on the, on the slippery dance floor.
07:44 And then right after that, I think soon after that, I don’t know how long after that, but the second, no, not the second, the Depression came by. I think it was 1929 or the 1930s? And during that period, he lost the restaurants. That, Golden Pumpkin, and Paradise Inn, and another place called Teton. All three restaurants went down during the Depression. And of course he was devastated.
08:16 But he was not one to stay down. He managed to find capital, borrow money, and started up what we called Hoe Sai Gai in downtown Chicago, on Randolph Street. And that’s pretty, uh, expanded. He expanded it from one dining room to two, then three dining rooms. I think holding over at least a thousand people I believe. They did very well. The restaurant did very well. And during World War II, it was, it was a very prosperous time for the servicemen, men, women working. So it did very well. So that’s the story of my father.
09:06 Fong: And during World War II, how did he avoid the service?
09:10 Eng: Oh, my father? My father, my father was in his, gosh, in his 50, late 50s, I believe, by then, huh? Right. He was a, he was one not to be stopped. He was always full of fancy ideas. And I understand he, he, we had an architect named, uh, an interior designer, rather, named – what’s his name now, oh, uh – Fanselow who designed what they called Art Deco type of furniture which is very popular today. And uh, we’ve found some scraps of, pieces of information in the archives. My daughters have found some scraps of information in the archive and it reveals the story of how popular Hoe Sai Gai was and the Golden Pumpkin was during those days. It kind of brought me into a better understanding of what my father did. Right?
10:20 Fong: So, were those restaurants – I’ve never been to Chicago – so were they in Chinatown or were they -?
10:24 Eng: Oh, no, they were Downtown. The main part of Downtown. The others were in the neighborhood, like Golden Pumpkin was on the West Side of Chicago, Paradise Inn was also the West Side of Chicago, but Hoe Sai Gai was right in the midst of the – where all the theater was. We had all the live – what you’d call – live shows, dramas, popular theaters. And we were right in that same block.
10:54 So tell me about your, your childhood in Chicago.
10:59 Oh, my childhood. My childhood. Well, we’ve went through the Depression. I remember. We were very young at that time. I was probably about, what was I, probably about five years old, maybe. I remember, I remember my father was so downcast and so sad and I guess broken maybe. He drew us all together, gathered us all together and we prayed. He – I didn’t know he was a Christian – he’d gather all the family then we just prayed. I look back on that. It was a nice thought, looking back on it. And I, I am a strong Christian now. Our whole family is, actually.
11:45 And I’ve went through normal things – Chinese school – not Chinese school – went to, uh, public schools. We lived in a neighborhood of all Caucasians. So we were brought up in a Caucasian neighborhood. We were the only Chinese family there. The only Chinese family in the school. My father was – around, uh, high school, and during my college years, my father had a stroke. So I quit school.
12:16 Fong: Sorry. [Interrupted by phone] Just start again and – at telling me about, uh, the stroke.
12:29 Eng: About the restaurant? From where?
12:34 Fong: So you were talking about the stroke.
12:35 Eng: Oh, my father had a stroke in 1941. Had a brother who was very ill, my father, took care of the brother, my older brother. And I think, because of the severity of his illness, day and night he would stay at the hospital by brother. After my brother died, he had a stroke. And, but he was determined to get well. I remember my youngest sister would take him – he insisted he had to make his arms, he was paralyzed on the let side, and he made it a very big effort to help himself. So he would exercise his arms everyday and have my sister take him walking. So he was able to, to, his brain was fine, he was able to think and all that, but, it was just that he was not able to use his arms and legs that well. But he did, he was able to manage, [unclear], he knew what was going on anyway. And we can, we girls, we had four sisters – three – three of us – four of us, we kind of went down to the restaurant and kinda helped take over. It was a good experience for us.
13:48 Fong: How old were you then?
13:49 Eng: Oh, I must have been, oh dear me. 18 and 19. 1943, 44, I think.
14:01 Fong: So you worked through the [unclear], you were just working at the restaurants?
14:06 Eng: Right, yeah, right. Until I got married and moved away.
14:13 Fong: And how about your life here, in Honolulu?
14:15 Eng: Oh my life here, this is paradise. I didn’t realize my husband brought me here. Of course, leaving your family, your whole family back in Chicago was kind of a – it was separation, a very tough separation for me, actually – so it took me a long time to realize that this is where my home should be. I raised by 5 girls here and I’ve been very happy here and where else can I go.
14:41 Fong: Did you have a career here or -?
14:44 Eng: No, I raised five daughters. And after my daughters grew up, I kind of helped my husband a little bit on the accounting side. He was a physician in town. He was orthopedic surgeon, so I kind of helped him, not down in the office but at home, yeah.
14:59 Fong: That’s an important job.
15:02 Eng: It was.
15:05 Fong: And so, you know, I think one of the interesting things about this project is that it’s Leland Stanford made his fortune on the Railroad.
15:14 Eng: I was surprised to learn that.
15:15 Fong: Yeah. And that money funded the University, you know, I mean, largely funded the University. And so, I think one of the interesting parts of this, this, yours, your family history is that some of your kids attended Stanford.
15:28 Eng: Oh yes, the two of the daughters, um, Paula and Sonya, right. Hmm hmm. And they were very happy there, I know. That’s where they met their husbands. *laughter*
15:44 Fong: *laughter* That’s important.
15:45 Eng: Oh, by the way, I studied Chinese. My father was very – insisted that we learn Chinese. So, during the regular school days, right after school, we’d hop on the streetcar, ride a one hour streetcar, ride through the old Chinatown. A man who was, who had lost his job during the Depression, set up a little school room in his apartment. And he taught about 25 kids. So I studied Chinese under this gentleman for 2 years and I loved the language. I mean love the Classics. I was kind of young but he brought us into the Classics. Like they called it – what do you call that Karen? – [names of Chinese Classics] – the famous poems. I loved it. I still love to read those to this day.
16:41 As a matter of fact, my husband, my husband – when my youngest daughter, Sonya, went off to Stanford, she said, “Mom! It’s time for you to go back to school.” So she pushed me into the University. So I enrolled at the University of Hawaii here and studied Mandarin for the first time, because Mandarin was not my native language, right? My dialect was actually -. So I enjoyed that for a couple of years and it has been wonderful.
17:08 Fong: That’s great.
17:09 Eng: Another thing. I think that we ought to retain is some of the Chinese traditions. I’ve learned to – I took a class and – what they call, crab claw narcissus – to carve the crab in little bulb, narcissus bulbs, and they form, they form like, they are actually miniature narcissus blossoms. And they’re just beautiful. It’s a lost art. Not many people do that nowadays.
17:43 Fong: So that’s a Chinese tradition?
17:44 Eng: Oh yes, yes. In fact, our teacher, he just retired last year, he would ship in the bulbs from Shenzhen, I think, I don’t remember the name, directly from China every year. And he had a – Mr. Gilman who – he taught this class – wonderful teacher, very meticulous.
18:13 My mom, my mom was a very strict woman. She trained us. She, she, my mother was a very strict – my dad was very liberal, he was. Never scolded us. But I guess the mother is always the disciplinarian, right? Anyway, after, I feel that after you marry off, you fully mature, you look back and realize how much wisdom your parents have. And then, I said, as I said, when you’re older if you have contact with your parents, there’s a, there’s a bonding that was never there – a different kind of bonding – when you, when you are grown up. That was beautiful, I think. Being able to bond with your mother. She would tell you bits and pieces, a lot of little jokes, you know, a lot of funny jokes, but I can’t repeat them here. *laughter* But it was a beautiful relationship. I am so glad that I had a relationship with my mom before she passed away.
19:23 So was your mother born in China or born in the US?
19:26 Oh, my mother was born in China. Yes. She was born, in fact, I think they’re from the same village or same county, same county, same village? My mother was, by the way, born on New Year’s Day. And that year was called the Horse Year. And that year was a bad year for a woman to be born on New Year’s Day. Bad luck, for that particular year. So my mother, she gave her birthday as, or parents did, gave her birthday as the 8th month to avoid the – my father would not have married her if he knew she was the Horse Year woman. Born in the first day of the year. You know, that’s considered bad luck. For other years, that’s fine. So anyway, she carried that secret with her for many years. None of my sisters even knew that. I told this to my sister Olga – she didn’t believe me. I said, “yes, mother told me definitely that she was born the New Year’s Day.” She kept that a secret. 1894. Horse Year.
20:52 Fong: [inaudible] story.
20:53 Eng: Oh, well, living in Chicago, we didn’t have a house. I remember my mother – we were living in a Caucasian neighborhood and we of course were, well, felt a little, maybe it did feel, we weren’t, we didn’t feel rejected or anything like that, but we more or less kept to ourselves because my mother couldn’t speak English. But anyways, my mother would go out [unclear] to the market for groceries, she would come home, in the summer months, just to treat us because she brought home ice cream cones. Dripping, just to to treat us five little girls, four little girls and our brother. It was very sweet of her to remember that, anyway. She was a sweet woman.
22:00 My mother came from a family of farmers. Her father was a farmer and they planted peanuts. I remember the peanuts and the yams, of course rice. And I recall many years ago, before the Word War II, Grandma would have dried yams and they were purple yams and not because the yams we have were orange but they were purple. And she dried them on sun over a big, I think it must have been, rice cloth, must be a rice cloth, bag. Anyways, it was always a treat for us. Grandma would [unclear] these dried potatoes. Of course, my mother did, my mother always wanted me to return to China to see her mother, but she never had the opportunity to return to China to see her mother.
22:51 As a matter of fact, my mother didn’t approve my marrying my husband because I was, my husband is from a long way – Hawaii – and I look back and realize that my mother didn’t want me to marry this young man because I wouldn’t, I would never return to Chicago to visit her, because she had left her mother and never saw her again. But I’ve returned every year to visit my mother in Chicago. After I returned to Hawaii. So that was nice. I gave my mother something to look forward to. She was very sad. She was happy with my husband. He was good son-in-law. He really catered to her.
23:34 Fong: And how about the story of her serving as a replacement mom?
23:38 Eng: Oh, yes. As I said, my father’s first wife had a son. And, and I don’t know – when the boy was probably about 9 years old, his mother died. Right. So my father married to another wife which was my mother – was called the second wife, huh – so she raised my brother, half-brother so to speak. I don’t understand – they slept in the same bed. I do realize that maybe old folks, the women, sleep with their children? Even though it wasn’t her son, she says they slept in the same bed for 9 years, something like that until she got married, until he got married. I think. I think he was, by that time, 1919, my brother would have been 17 years old or 18 years old according to lunar calendar. And I think my husband, my father rushed home to [unclear] to get a, to find a bride for him. And do you know where he found a bride for my brother? Well, on the, on the ship going back to, to China, he met a fellow, uh, not relative, someone from the same county. And he was going home too to look for a spouse for her daughter, for his daughter, rather. So they made a deal on the ship. Father found a bride for his son, and the bride’s father found a groom for her, his daughter. Yeah. It was interesting. Imagine making a deal on a ship like that. How would you like that? Match made in, I think match made in heaven.
25:30 Fong: And, uh
25:35 Fong: Is about – if you have any, if there are any stories about your grandfather sending money back to China or how he may be sent money back to China while he was working here or did he, do you think, he brought it all back at once or? Give me – do you have any stories about that?
25:52 Eng: No, I know nothing about that at all. I know nothing about my [Cantonese word], my grandfather. No. But my maternal grandfather, my mother did tell me this. That he said it was so difficult, he would never be trying to return to the United States. He was the one who worked in the goldfields. Right. So I imagine it must have been just as difficult for my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, who came for the Railroad project. Right. But it must have been a hard life for either.
26:31 Fong: I’m sure it was. Uh, have you been to China? Have you been back to China?
26:35 Eng: Uh, we went back there in 1981? 82? 83? My husband [unclear] all five – all of us back there to visit. But not to our village. No. We didn’t. We just made a tour of China for about, I think, a month, I think it was. It was very nice to see all the cities, the beautiful cities of China. Yeah. The Yangtze River, and we saw the Falls. What do you call those? The [unclear]? I think they did not start that project yet. It was just beautiful.
27:09 Fong: And you, you didn’t have interest in seeing the village?
27:15 Eng: No, my husband is not from that village and the fellow who planned our trip for us, us, did not include our village at all. Though my sister Olga went back to the village. Now she would have something to say about that.
[Video Cuts] 27:37 Eng: I heard from my sister Olga that – this is from my mother – my mother has mentioned that to my sister Olga that she’d heard people – people said that this man had returned to the village and uh, brought back [Cantonese word] which is about 10,000 American money? And she didn’t identify who it was, but I guess they assumed it was Grandpa. [Cantonese name]. In fact, last night, I met some, old gentleman, and I asked him if he knew of anyone who had worked on the Railroad project. He said, “yes, I do know.” But I just can’t remember his name, I just can’t remember – he is an older gentleman. I just can’t remember his name but I know someone in the village did work on the railroad, right.
28:34 Fong: It’d be interesting. I’m sure that – if it was your grandfather and he did bring the money back to the village that they used to buy or build that home or, you know, –
28:43 Eng: By the way, my father has the, my father has the biggest home in the village. I was told by these people from my village that – I guess – he has the biggest house in the village, my father did. So that must have been before he came to the States. Was, is well-known.
29:06 My uncle has a son, [unclear], he has a son. My uncle was very wealthy. And he has one son from the first wife. And because he’s so wealthy, the son was well-educated, but he never worked. He smoked opium. And eventually he came to the United States. And never worked. And I remember he was out at the restaurant, just hanging around the restaurant, but during the World War II, he could no longer find opium. So he was – he became – without opium, you, mental, right? – so he ended up in a mental situation without the opium. And that, I guess because his father had all that money, he didn’t have to work or anything and that’s what happened to a lot of the rich families, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he had a second wife. My uncle had a second wife. And one of the sons came here. But he was not opium – not into opium. Much younger boy. Yeah.
30:14 Opium addicts.
30:17 Fong: Yeah, that’s pretty rare.
30:19 Eng: Is it rare? Well, that was back then – a long time ago, huh, right?
30:24 Fong: I know it’s a very powerful addictive, once you start. 30:29 Eng: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Well, my father was born 1884. My father is born 1884. His son was, well, I just assume his son was probably born 1880, but my uncle maybe born 1880s, early, late 70s, 1870 or something like that maybe. Yeah. Opium was very prevalent in that area where he resided, Hong Kong, southern part of China. That’s all over, I think. Right?
31:23 Okay. Ready? I’m Sonya. Am I looking at here or am I looking there? Okay. Hi. I’m Sonya. My maiden name was Lum, now I am Seng, which is not Chinese at all. It’s, I married to a [unclear] guy – and, Caucasian guy. And I’m fifth in, the fifth girl in this family. I went to Stanford, graduated in 1989, the degree in English and Music.
31:51 My name is Madeline. My name is – full name is Madeline Dreith – and I’m the third of five daughters, the middle child. I went to UCLA, graduated in 1982, and I’m presently the Director of Community Tenants with the United States Tenants Association.
32:23 [whispers] [inaudible] Well, I’m Florence Eng Lum. Born in Chicago, Illinois. 89 years ago. And now I reside in Honolulu, which is paradise.
32:42 And I’m Karen. I’m the oldest of the five daughters. And I got my undergraduate degree at UC Berkeley and I finished my Masters in Studio Art at University of Hawaii. And I would like to say that I’m still attempting to paint and make art related to Chinese poetry and themes.
33:09 Florence Eng Lum: [whispers] 33:13 I’m Paula Lum. And I’m number four of the five girls. I was born in 1962. Oh, I attended Stanford from 1980 to 1985. I have a Bachelor’s in Human Biology and a Master’s in Sociology. I am now an internist working in the HIV Clinic at San Francisco General Hospital. And I’ve been there since 1999.
33:40 Fong: So I know each one of you has a story that in your mind that you might want to mention that your mom might not have mentioned earlier. So, why don’t you go ahead?
33:50 Paula Lum: Wow, there are so many stories. There are so many stories of your childhood that I, I am not sure that you’ve told. Um, well the story that I’m thinking about is how much your mother loved her son and how much in Chinese culture
34:07 Eng: Oh, that’s right. [Sonya Seng nods in agreement] 34:08 Paula Lum: the son is the prince. And how times were very hard and if she peeled an orange that *Richard* would get the orange and you guys would have to eat the peels. Is that true?
34:21 Eng: Orange juice. She would squeeze orange juice. He would get the juice. And we would get the dregs.
34:29 Paula Lum: You would get the dregs.
34:30 Eng: Right. And she had only one son. My mother just had one son. So the, naturally, the son is, you know, prominent in the family life.
34:43 Paula Lum: Well and she was pregnant with him when she crossed the Pacific, right?
34:46 Eng: Oh yeah, she might have been. She must have been pregnant when she arrived at the States. That would be 1919, I believe.
34:57 Sonya Seng: I think, um, if I can chime in relatedly what I remember is that’s the beginning of kinda your conception of, uh, the girls and the boy thing in your family. And then sadly, Richard died as a young man. So he died of some mysterious flu – like in his 20 or something like that.
35:15 Eng: He just made 18, no he just made 20, just made 21 when he died.
35:19 Sonya Seng: Oh yeah. So then the only son died and then your father had a stroke like a year-and-a-half later?
35:24 Eng: No, just right after that.
35:25 Sonya Seng: Oh, right after that.
35:26 Eng: Right after that.
35:27 Sonya Seng: So I always remember the tragedy of that. That your mother was not allowed to go to the funeral for some Chinese customary reasons. And then she forced you – and you were how old? 16? How old were you?
35:37 Eng: 17 then.
35:39 Sonya Seng: She forced you to take her on the streetcar to the cemetery.
35:43 Eng: No, we hired a taxi.
35:45 Sonya Seng: Oh, a taxi.
35:46 Eng: Hired a taxi.
35:47 Sonya Seng: And then you watched her as she pounds her head on the tombstone or the grave, the gravestone, just weeping and for her only son. I’ve always thought that was extremely powerful and sad.
36:01 Eng: And that’s what – next time we met, she took clothes, suitcase of clothes, shoes, everything, whole wardrobe, and money – U.S. dollars – and we burned them at the grave site. That was the Chinese custom. So that they would have the money to spend and clothing to wear for the afterlife. That was her upbringing, I guess. Hmm hmm. It was very hard for me to, to accept that. But I went along with her. It’s hard to lose a child.
36:43 Fong: Is there another story? That someone has on mind?
36:47 Madeline Dreith: Well, I remember mom telling me how [Cantonese Name], your father, was very passionate about his job and that he’d love to work and he worked long hours. But he never had money in his pocket. And that if he needed to buy things for the children or his wife, he’d take it out of the cash register.
37:07 Eng: Oh, that’s my father.
37:09 Paula Lum, Sonya Seng and Madeline Dreith: Yeah.
37:10 Eng: My father, right.
37:11 Madeline Dreith: So perhaps he wasn’t [unclear] but he gave everything back to the business. And then, if there were any immediate needs, he’d take it at the cash register.
37:20 Eng: Just 10 dollars at a time.
37:21 Dreith: Pay, help the family.
37:30 Fong: So, I know when we were off camera, we were talking about the $10,000 –
37:34 Eng: Oh, that’s the other grandfather. Talk about –
37:36 Dreith: Oh, your dad.
37:37 Fong: Yeah.
37:38 Eng: My, my husband. No, no, my dad, my dad, my father.
37:41 Dreith: Your dad.
37:43 Eng: Right. During the Depression years, when we had no business – oh, when he first started out again, at the Hoe Sai Gai, uh, he wouldn’t take a salary. He’d just take ten dollars if [unclear] my mother would want money for the grocery – take ten to her. “I’ll take ten dollars out, sign my name to it, put it up.” Ten dollars a time for shoes maybe or things like that. You know, when you’re struggling, in the early days of Depression, right, when the business had [unclear] – hadn’t begun that well by then yet. That would be nineteen, I’d say that would be 1933 or so, right after the Depression, right.
38:22 Paula Lum: You sure that it was [Cantonese relational word]’s father that brought the money back to the village or was that [Cantonese relational word]’s father?
38:31 Eng: It would be, it would, no not ju gung. Ju gung was my mother’s side. Aa gung would be my father’s side. Ju gung is always the mother’s side.
38:42 Paula Lum: So your father’s father
38:43 Eng: Yeah, would be the [Cantonese relational word], would be the one – if he were the one to bring the money back.
38:52 Paula Lum: And he worked on the Railroad?
38:54 Eng: Yeah. That’s we assume that he did. We don’t have any papers to document that.
38:59 Fong: Maybe the project can find the missing papers.
All materials on these pages © Chinese Railroad Workers in North America Project at Stanford.